Maximumrocknroll Interviews Operation Ivy
Interview by Brian and David
MRR: Let's talk about hedges.
Jesse: Fuck 'em ... destroy 'em.
MRR: Destroy hedges?
Jesse: They hold us down.
MRR: Does an anger burn inside you about hedges?
Jesse: Well I guess at first it was a seething hatred but now it's simmered down a little, how do you mean?
MRR: You came out with the term Hedgecore, and it's also a song...
Jesse: I'd like to say straight off that we didn't come up with that, that's a common misconception. It's been a sport for the last, I'd say seven years all over the country. People are doing it in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania where I used to live. So we're not the only ones who hedgedive.
MRR: Why don't you explain what that is.
Jesse: Well it's just like a leisure activity in which you jump into hedges headfirst, essentially, and you try and have as much fun while doing it as possible under the circumstances.
Lint: We were the first band to actually write a song about it.
Jesse: We were the first band to pattern our lives around it. (Laughter)
MRR: So has anyone taken it any farther, like made hedgebowls and hedge competitions?
Jesse: No, we don't think it should be commercialised, that's a serious threat, I think
MRR: What about eye protection?
Jesse: Eye protection, no, forget it. If you aren't willing to go blind you're definitely too much of a 'whiner' for hedgediving. It's not like a macho thing, but you can't compromise thrashing chaos when doing it.
Matt: I don't know that much about hedgediving.
Dave: Me neither, I'm against it.
MRR: How many people have actually done it in the band?
Lint: Two.
Jesse: Basically what's going on with this is, it's something people have been doing, then one time Lint was writing a ska song and I wrote lyrics in literally five minutes and it turned into this rallying cry. It's cool that people get up on stage and sing along but it doesn't really represent us or anything. It's just a song we enjoy playing because it's totally festive.
MRR: So 'Break Down The Hedge' isn't like a seeting anger towards foliage? (Laughter)
Jesse: Each person has their own individual view of it.
MRR: What type of hedge is best to jump in?
Jesse: The best ones are the square ones that look like they have alarm systems on them. It's far more satisfying and they're softer for jumping into and more comfortable. The worst ones are either prickly ones or junipers which are really bad.
MRR: What about pyracantha?
Jesse: Pyracantha are garbage, any hedges with flowers are gonna suck. It's the light green bushy ones that you want to go for.
MRR: The ones that gardeneners sculpt to look like rabbits?
Jesse: Right, those are satisfying (laughter). Basically you just have to trust your instincts, go out in the street and RAGE and decide what you like best aesthetically. It's a matter of taste.
MRR: Anyway, where did your ska influence come from?
Matt: It's no big secret (laughter), we just listened to records and we heard it, and I could name off the bands that we listen to, do you want me to do that?
MRR: No.
Matt: I don't know where it came from.
MRR: Basically, the ska 'craze', or whatever was some years back, what led you now at this point to bring it back in?
Matt: Well I don't think we're bringing in a ska 'craze'.
MRR: No. not a craze but it seems that everyone got away from that kind of music, yet you still have enough enjoyment out of it to play it again.
Matt: Yeah, we like it, we do it real hard edge, we don't do it the way they did it, we didn't really think about it, it just sorta happened. We just wrote songs like that and they're not straight through ska, they're kind of hardcore too so it's our own style.
Jesse: I've been into ska for a long time. Ska bands seem to have a really negative tendency for becoming lame pop abnds, unfortunately. Because of this and also just because of our taste in music, I think it's fair to say that when we play ska we keep it as hard edged as possible.
Lint: Yeah.
Jesse: I mean, we like alot of ska but we try to take it a little further.
MRR: Do you see the sound getting more accented towards the ska sound eventually or do you want to keep it a pretty even balance?
Matt: I don't know. I don't think we're gonna go straight ahead, go-for-it ska, we're always going to have that influence. I don't know where it's gonna go but I don't think it's gonna go in one direction.
Jesse: Well, of course.
Matt: At least not now, I can't see it happening.
MRR: Well, to backtrack a bit, Matt & Lint used to be in a band called Basic Radio which had accordion & horns and all that.
Matt: We had a drummer, too. (laughter)
MRR: Yeah, well I just meant it was out of the ordinary and it was somewhat similar to the type of sound you're doing now. But something happened along the lines where I'm assuming that you two wanted to keep it less commercial and they wanted to go more along the mainstream type of sound.
Lint: Yeah we wanted to keep on playing parties and stuff like that and they wanted to get gigs that were more ... had more money in it pretty much, that was pretty much the main concern. We weren't making enough money, and Matt & I were like 'Well, you know, there's more to music than money'.
Matt: That's basically the bottom line, I mean we like ska and it was a good band but me and Lint wanted to just go out and do what we do now and just play everywhere, like garages, parties, y'know just take one vehicle and go, on the spur of the moment.
MRR: So was it also a changing of the music? Like you had that one demo tape that was really produced. Did they want to go more along the lines of that type of mainstream music as well?
Lint: Yes, the other guys in the band only wanted to play mainstream clubs. Once Basic Radio was actually being taken more seriously, once we had the potential to become more commercial, me and Matt were pushing it more non-commercial.
MRR: So with that as a preface where do you see Operation Ivy going or what do you see happening with the band? That's what I was getting at before about where you were headed with that sound, you started out with just a few ska songs and now there are more involved. Do you see it as eventually maybe going entirely one way or another or…
Lint: It's hard to say, I can't really tell, we write songs as songs, we're not going to plan it out…
Jesse: We don't say 'Let's write a ska song…'
Lint: It just happens, so the weird thing is that we've been writing a lot of ska lately and I think it's just because we're into that right now.
Jesse: It's just the groove we're in.
Lint: Yeah, but maybe in a little while we're not gonna be into that. I just think that no matter what we'll be doing, it will be pretty aggressive.
Jesse: Yeah.
Lint: That's just one thing you can count on.
Jesse: Everybody in this band loves ska but a lot of it is basically a bit more light-hearted and commercial. Is it fair to say that we try and take ska music and put more of an edge to it?
Lint: Yeah.
Jesse: It's almost like we want to take really good music that often turns commercial or is semi-commercial and bring it back down to earth. Bring it underground and add some energy to it because the natural energy of ska music is amazing and when you take it and add more hardcore underground-type energy to it…
Lint: I'm not saying that we're anything new or a big deal, I'm just saying that … I mean I consider us a punk band.
Jesse: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Jesse: Bottom line we're a punk band.
Lint: But we're totally influenced by ska. I'm not saying that we're a big deal, or any big crossover thing, it's just that we're playing what we're really influenced by and what we love.
Jesse: Right.
Matt: Yeah, exactly.
MRR: Obviously you're not in it for the money factor, you are one of the few bands that consistently kicks money back from what you get paid at Gilman. That's what I was leading up to before as far as what you see happening with the band, why you are in it and where it is going. We might even get Dave to talk…
Lint: Good luck.
Dave: I just want to play (laughter).
Matt: And with that said…
Jesse: Man, we just want to rock.
Matt: I just want to play.
MRR: You all work side jobs, so it's not like you're making a living off it.
Matt: Not at all, I'm barely making a living off my side job.
Lint: We're gonna put out a 7" on Lookout Records which should be pretty cool … Maybe if we do get an album out or maybe a couple albums out I just hope that we keep this same attitude, that we don't go soft like a lot of bands do … I hope we keep playing parties and we stay in touch with what's going on 'cause a lot of bands forget their roots and they start getting soft and selling out. I hope maybe like 3 years down the line that we still have our attitude that we have right now and that we still give our money back to Gilman. Wherever we play, I hope we don't lose that.
Jesse: Just staying down to earth. It bothers me when I see a band that separates itself from the audience. Sometimes even when people in some 'underground' bands will be talking to the audience they'll just be like pandering to the crowd as a build-up for some song. Part of my goal is to be a band that breaks down that barrier and just has a better kind of energy that's more down to earth.
Matt: I just like to play. I mean I really, really enjoy what I do. I've always loved music, so that's all I want to do. I want to see the country with the band and go as far as we can go. The money thing is no big deal to me - I just like to play. If we make money, we make money. If anything it's just for a survival mechanism, as far as if we're gonna go tour or whatever, but I just want to play so I really don't care what happens as long as we do that.
Jesse: Also, I'm not entirely happy with all the lyrics that I've written, but I think in some of our newer songs the lyrics communicate new ideas and I wouldn't be satisfied at all if I thought that nobody was going to read them. Communication is also very important to me.
MRR: So you feel it's a really important part of a band in their live material to put something across to the audience. Not just 'go out and rock', but to go out and put something across to people, to develop some kind of rapport with the audience, whether it's at Gilman where you know everybody or say, somewhere else where you don't know anybody.
Jesse: Right, we do that.
Lint: Yeah, this may sound corny or something but I think music is like a communication process. We're up there and we're playing and if we're like … not giving out any energy then people pick that up and they won't give a fuck about us and then it just goes to a Catch 22 and just builds up from there. So out main message right now I think is just having a really high energy vibe on stage … that's pretty much all I really know about this band.
Jesse: When we play, the high energy of our music comes out the most clearly. It's not like a dramatic thing, we're not deliberately trying to look good, it's just direct communication of the vibe of our music. It depends a lot of the audience but generally we completely get into playing live, emotionally and physically … taking music and playing it at a down-to-earth level which is not that common of a thing. I think that is happening a lot more with some of the bands I've seen coming out lately and I'm really about it, but that's just what I think. It's a big part of what we are into.
Matt: Yeah I agree, it's communication, it's down to earth and it's not this big … y'know … band audience separation. I don't think that is cool at all, I hate that.
MRR: Are you saying it's equally as important to put the energy across and inspire people again as opposed to getting up and putting across a specific message? Like a lot of bands use their band as a vehicle to put across a particular message but would it be safe to say that if you put this energy across that's equally as important, it just gets people inspired and back into things again rather than being 'out there' and jaded and 'Yeah well punk sucks now' or whatever?
Lint: Yeah.
Jesse: Part of it is if you come across down to earth then it just creates a more down-to-earth environment in a club or whatever, once you have that environment I think people … a lot of it is just a matter of mutual respect, bands respecting the audience as equals and the audience respecting the bands as equals as opposed to some detached figures, and once that environment is created in a punk scene or underground music then it's just way more healthy in general for people because if you have a friendlier environment, people will talk to each other…
Matt: Yeah.
MRR: It's always seemed to me that it's a lot more productive if a band can get someone inspired again … and get them back being interested again and then they are just more naturally going to pick up on the good aspects of the bands that put a particular message across, but if you have bands, particularly the bands that play at Gilman a lot that are real inspiring, get people back into things and energetic and enthused again, get rid of the negative attitudes and that gets people more energized, then they're more likely to do constructive things, it's not necessarily because 'OPIV told me to', but it's because 'I like the music' and 'It got me interested in the whole thing', not just a particular band.
Jesse: Also, as a side note to that, I wouldn't be satisfied with just energy if I didn't think that people wouldn't read the lyrics, and although I'm not all that happy with the lyrics I've written, personally, we all write lyrics, but I wouldn't be satisfied if it was pure being down to earth. I like to have real communication in thoughts and words as well.
MRR: You (Shrik) also do a lot of art work, is there the same general energy that you are trying to get across in your artwork, or is there something particular involved?
Jesse: Me, personally?
MRR: Yeah.
Jesse: Art for me is just communication and people happen to like it. I've done art for bands and because they like my expression of the concepts in my head, they use it, but for me, it's not necessarily directed to anyone in particular, it's just communication of a feeling I have inside onto paper. Although my art itself isn't abstract, there are things in it, it's just an abstract concept, it isn't … it's hard to define … it's pretty abstract as a whole.
MRR: Is that any one particular woman's face that you draw? (laughter)
Jesse: When I was drawing on the Gilman St. wall I made that theme but in general I don't. I just got obsessed with that particular woman's face.
Lint: Why does her hair always blow to the left? (laughter)
Jesse: If anyone ever asks me about that, 1) it isn't any particular person, 2) her hair doesn't always blow to the left, and 3) I'm not fuckin weird (laughter).
MRR: So what do you want to accomplish with your tour in March?
Matt: A warm meal every day.
Lint: My reason is I just want to go out there and see the country with my best friends, that's my reason.
Jesse: I dropped out of school and I want to learn about life and that's the way I want to do it. And also this band is the main thing in my life right now, we all want to take it and we basically want to see the country, play a lot of new places, meet some people…
Matt: Yeah that's what I want to do too. I just want to get out there and see the country, play and learn, see what's happening in oher parts of the country, there are some states I've never been to, and I definitely want to go.
Lint: It's kind of scary, a little bit, cause we're such a small band. Maybe that's good, maybe that fear is good. I think maybe we'll grow, maybe we'll learn, I think it's something we've got to do right now. I think when we come back we'll be a little bit more seasoned maybe.
Jesse: We'll also be playing to people who don't have the bias … Also… even when we played the Farm or something I think being on the road the main factor in that aspect is that we'll be playing for people who have no bias because they are our friends. And I just want to see how people will react because I know that we get really good response at Gilman and I feel that the whole communication thing that we were talking about really works there, and even at the Farm it worked a little bit, we had a not all that great show, but even so, we played right after eight mean, aggressive, thrash bands or whatever and then we come up on stage and got all happy and shit (laughter). Even in that, although we didn't get the greatest response in the world people weren't throwing bottles at us or anything. There were people dancing around and stuff. I'd just like to see what happens when we're really put to the test in a sense, playing to people that have no bias. 'Cause we never really have, basically, we've always had some friends there.
Matt: Exactly.
Jesse: It's not like we bring people. It's not like we're going to tell them not to come see us either.
MRR: OK, you brought up the thing before about being a Gilman St. band, why don't we talk a little bit about that place, what it has meant in particular to you as band as far as inspirations go or what it's done for you.
Lint: I think it's a big reason why we're actually a band, because when Basic Radio broke up, me and Matt were just hanging out there and Jesse was too.
Matt: So was Dave.
Lint: I think being around all this creative energy totally got us into that kind of mode of thinking and I think it's a big reason why were formed as a band.
Matt: Yeah.
Jesse: I think although we would have been a band anyway, probably, I think it's definitely done us a lot of good to have that there.
Matt: It's definitely helped us.
Lint: I think we can't take Gilman for granted and I think a lot of people do. It's really easy to forget when things are good. We should keep it going as long as possible.
Matt: Yeah, I agree. I don't know if we would have been a band or not because of Gilman, but it's sure a big part of it, 'cause I didn't know Dave or Jesse that well until I started going there. There's really not a helluva lot of other places to play if you do what we do and there are a lot of other bands coming up and it's a comfortable place to play and all your friends are there. All in all it's really helped us. I like it a lot.
Dave: I think basically the same thing, it's great also, like they were saying, we just can't take it for granted, even though Gilman St. is great, I don't think there's a whole lot of other Gilman Streets out there in the country. Basically, everything else is clubs or whatever.
Lint: It's got its problems. I think that more people should get involved, because there's a small core of us that are actually keeping that place going. I think twice as many people should get involved. I don't think it should be just that small ammunt and a lot of people are saying 'I'm not welcome down there' or 'I listen to metal' or 'I drink beet, they don't want me down there'. I'm saying, you know, it doesn't matter, don't cop out, don't use that as an excuse, get involved. A lot of people who make little excuses are not too cool. I think everybody's welcome there. Everybody should get involved.
Jesse: What I'd really like to see happen there is … a lot of the whole idea behind Gilman is the concept of having a community-type place where instead of saying THEY don't allow smoking in this room or whatever, and people go there saying THEY, meaning some higher-up at the club or whatever, I'd like to hear people saying WE. I think if that was happening, like right now there's a conflict where there's talk about getting a security guard because outside people are trying to trash the club and so on and so forth and just going down there and beating people or whatever. I think if it became more of a community place, if there were 100 people at every meeting or whatever, then we would have something that would be even better than it already is because you wouldn't have to worry about a security guard. If there were eight assholes there fucking shit up or whatever we could just tell them to leave. If there's eight of you then you're going to leave generally. I'd like to see it become more substantial and more clear to everybody and I'd like to have people feel a little more welcome to that inside core. I feel like I'm a part of it but to be honest I can understand why people on the outside would feel a little awkward 'cause there is a lot of tight friendship at Gilman and it isn't a social clique and it certainly isn't exclusive or elitist but still when you see a lot of friends it might look like a clique from the outside even though I really honestly think it isn't and I can understand how people could be scared away.
Lint: People have accused Gilman of being full of all those little cliques but I know all those people and being in all those so-called little cliques and they're all really good, really nice, friendly people. And I just think the people who say Gilman has an attitude, I think these people should take a look at themselves maybe.
MRR: They're putting up the attitude, do you think, that drives people away?
Lint: Sure, and I think that's where that comes from.
MRR: So now with the closing of the Farm, which some people saw as the last bastion of meanies, maybe there will be more positive places showing up. OK, we're not gonna put up with people who fight, we're not gonna put up with assholes. Do you get the feeling that there is more of a funness coming back?
Lint: I think that it is and I think it's coming back because Gilman St. can't work with a bunch of assholes with cop attitudes.
MRR: People have said that it's not hardcore enough for them inside or it's not radical enough or itns' not this or it's not that. Do you feel that the erngy level or the rowdiness is definitely there … just in a different direction
Jesse: I think if people want to see it as an extension of a scene that's been going on for the last couple years then they're not going to be satisfied because Gilman is different from even some of the clubs that I think were really good like Tool & Dieor Clubfoot. It's just different from that and it isn't a continuation of the scene it's something new and different and I'm sorry personally to see that it's the ONLY thing. I'd like to see a lot of things happening and it bothers me that people should be put in a position where they'll take Gilman for granted because it's the only thing they know but as long as it's there, I think it's the best thing we have and I think the people that are there are some of the best people I've ever met. I'm hesitant to complain too much but people have different needs.
Lint: I hope something small pops up in SF because with the Farm being gone there's not a lot of young SF bands coming up. Like in the East Bay there are so many bands coming up all the time. And in SF, there are very few, there's some, but it's not balanced out at all.
Jesse: I think it's no coincidence that the weekend after there were no more Farm shows, suddenly there's 15 skins at Gilman beating people up and I think that says something about … it's no coincidence and I think that's one of the best aspects about Gilman that it provides some relief from that, and that before people like that weren't really drawn because it was too much of a hassle. For me, the negative aspect is the fact that people do take Gilman for granted and once Gilman started ... it is a new thing … and I don't think that now there's not going to be as many little things popping up around Berkeley and Oakland. There used to be this place called Minor Rock and the Twilight Zone and stuff like that. I think it could be less of a dominant force but that's just the way it works.
Lint: I think with all these new bands and all this new energy I think there will be some new places popping up.
Jesse: I'd totally like to see that happen. Gilman's great but I wouldn't want it to be the only thing around. I'd like to see more places like it. Outlets for bands. I think the best function Gilman could have would be as an inspiration for other people although it's unrealistic to say you're going to produce another Gilman unless you have financial backing, it might be an inspiration to other people to start shows in community centers or something. And also the fact that it gets the scene going a lot more, mostly from all the bands that are popping up.
Matt: I agree with them.
Lint: Can I say one last thing?
MRR: Yeah, definitely.
Lint: I keep talking about the Northern California scene but it's really good, a lot of young bands that are really fresh and really sincere, to name a few - UNIT PRIDE, POULTRY MAGIC, all the bands on the TURN IT AROUND comp.
Jesse: Except us.
Lint: BITCH FIGHT, SURROGATE BRAINS, and there's a really good band from Chico that we sae, EMPTY OFFER, they're wonderful, probably one of the best vibes that I've seen in a long time.
Dave: Well Skin's not here so just to let you guys know we have another member and his name is Skin.
Jesse: Sometimes we get a little too comfortable with what we are doing and Skin's there to complain and add a cynical, sarcastic, biting edge to all of our actions.
Dave: And he's always here to beat Matt up whenever he gets out of control.
Matt: Beat me up?
Jesse: Whenever we start getting too happy he's always there to make us miserable.
Printed in Maximumrocknroll 1988
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